Where do we draw the line
Shoeporn's picture

so Mr I will turn you into a prostitute (whose blog seems to have disappeared) got me thinking:

I was watching a documentary on hbo this weekend about the cannibal cop. for those that don't know he was a cop that would go on fetish websites and talk about cannibalizing women. well he wound up getting prosecuted for it. the doc is interesting not so much because of his specific story but because it brings up complicated issues of when does thought become action, when is a "crime" really committed, when does public safety out weigh personal rights, what is thought crime?

now we all "know" Mr I will turn you into a prostitute was probably just mid fantasy and decided to write a post just for the hell of it and because it got him off more and because maybe, just maybe, some woman would also be online and want to "play" that game and respond.  They might exchange a couple of PMs and both of them get off and that's all that happens. But what if it evolved? the woman really decides to turn a trick. Mr I will turn you into a prostitute has no idea he still thinks it is all online fun...has he committed a crime by being a virtual pimp (pandering would be the crime I think)?

Now what about the more serious role plays? specifically r*p* role play.  lets say a man and woman are online engaging in some r*p* role play fantasy talk, neither specifically say "this is just a fantasy".  The guy buys some duct tape, cuffs etc but only to take a picture to send to the woman..just a visual aid for fun and to make it seem more real...according to this documentary by taking actions that indicate you will commit the crime you can be prosecuted.

the way I have written the scenes above gives the impression they are clearly fantasies of people but HOW DO WE KNOW?? what if the man in the r*p* scene has been inundated with writings (as you will find on larger sites like fetlife) that women really enjoy r*p*...what if he got to know enough about the woman to know where to find her and he was in fact going to use those implements to r*p* her for real? YOU CANT KNOW!!

I read some of the posts here and on fet and I can feel the hatred of the men writing them. Men who I would say are a danger to women...BUT THAT IS THIER ONLINE PERSONA...in real life they are a totally different person.  Which personality is real? the internet and the ability to be someone totally different has made it so hard to know what is really real. Do these men really think of women this way? are they basement dwellers who haven't really interacted with women so all they know is a porn version of what a woman is so do think really ridiculous things like women WANT to be r*p*d?

this really isn't a blog about womens safety issues but these things are why I sometimes get skeeved out by "the lifestyle".   I know most are like me-they have fantasies and may even act them out but understand that most of what we discuss is not real...I am not a worthless whore, I am actually a smart strong woman (stronger and smarter than many domly doms) but we have fun role playing...but what about the ones that don't know where the line is or that there even is a line? Really I just meant to open a discussion on the duality of our selves in this community and also the interesting question of when fantasy gets too close to reality-where is THAT line?

so this blog got a bit rambling and all over the place but that is how the trains of thought about these subjects go...you start on one topic and it ties to another and another until you cant really form a black and white opinion because it is all so complex and so intertwined with a persons rights and every ones differing opinion on where the danger lies.  I would love to hear anyone elses thoughts on the topic of when does thought become crime and what part of a person is real-the online or the IRL.

(I highly recommend the aforementioned documentary on hbo.)

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peope's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

I would add that there are people from different countries here.
And even from state to state most police-power-laws are not the same.

In Germany and Denmark (at least it was) legal with prostitution.

Sweden is quite repressive and tries to actively export its policies. And succeeded with Canada and Norway although there was some partial overturn by the highest court in Canada. I believe the fixed it by making it [filtered word] to advertise in any form about any sexual services.

Here it is not a crime to be the prostitute.
It is a crime to temporary sexual relations for money.
It is a pretty severe crime to be a fascilitator of sexual services.

In Tunisia a man has a right to his wife...

I wasn't going to make a post about prostitution especially. Just about jurisdictions.
I don't have a stake in it. It is a no go for me. While I do not see me judging too much if someone has done it. I focus on the future and how they are now.

But I will add that WHO, UN Women and Amnesty International (not Amnesty Sweden) wants to decriminalise prostitution.

I find it strange if the purpose is to protect the woman to sentence her for a crime.
It seems to be a strong puritan religiously motivated type of law.
As with pot. And of course where we all can agree the prohibition for sodomy and other such deeds by informed consenting adults.

At least be cautious about jurisdiction on an international venue.

Thank you

peope's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

I can only speak for myself.

I take moderate pride in that I try to show my true self and make myself searchable and thus accountable for my actions if I where to be inconsistent or do something [filtered word] or gravely immoral.

I believe it adds to the gravitas of the words.
I might not flaunt about my 20" dick that I do not have.
But what I say is real. Even if we as humans tend to exxagurate and make small adjustments unconsciously.

I fully understand not very many can or want to do that.
And advocate especially women to be careful about any pictures, names, addresses, age, birthdays, phonenumbers, emails that are used otherwhere.
A quick search and you can limit the area. Especially if you also get the ip.
So be smart about yourselves.

I don't *know* what is real or not. I can just make my best assessments.
I *do* believe there are a minority who have for me very lets say unpalatable desires they really want to make reality.

How you handle situations is not an easy yes or no in most cases.
You need to make a judgement-call and act according to your values and find a means that is effective. If you do not have either or there might not be much to do about it.

Act the best you can in every situation.

In this case a discussion about how to deal with these types of problems and caution about unintended and unforseen consequences of actions people take.

As part of a prominent post bring give a heads-up about the problems with misunderstandings of what is role-play and what is real.

I appreciate your warning which I believe comes out of care for all.
Sincerely
// Peo

Harpo's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

Shoeporn wrote:
Before this goes off topic into comedy let me clarify that outside of the basement dwellers, which I think we can all agree exist, when I make fun of the married guys (and gals) up late at night cruising fetlife it is mainly because those guys who style themselves Doms or Masters and make some of these comments we are discussing are not just fakes but inauthentic..it is a HUGE pet peeve of mine for someone to call themselves those things but then not have the guts to live authentically. By that I mean at the VERY least being honest with their spouse about their interests...I don't object to lying on moral grounds per se I just find it cowardly and in my mind that prevents one from being a dom of any sort. If you have these drives I don't think you need to proclaim it to every person you know but you should be honest with your partner...if you are into bdsm tell them..if you are into poly (or having multiple subs) DONT MARRY SOMEONE MONO. Be a man, be true to who you are and what you want, if you have caved to societal standards that aren't right for you I have zero respect for you as a man. Hope that clarifies a bit..I am not painting every commenter with the same brush.

+edited to add: in a nutshell-if you can't live your own life in a fashion that is deserving of respect how can you expect a sub to follow your lead


I guess you have touched a nerve here. In this particular site most men ( who call themselves Doms and Masters ) and women ( who call themselves subs and slaves ) are doing exactly what you have just defined as inauthentic.

Shoeporn's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

sleasentease wrote:
Schrodingers submissive wrote:
sleasentease wrote:

And what of the married women??

The boring ones are apparently sleeping while their husbands are pawing over fetish photos on the internet and clearing their browser histories. The interesting ones are doing something else.

Shoeporn wrote:

Lol yes them too...though I generally imagine them late at night at the kitchen table typing : "jealous!!! I would love to be treated like that" lol

Ha! Good one, Shoeporn!

Interesting...

Before this goes off topic into comedy let me clarify that outside of the basement dwellers, which I think we can all agree exist, when I make fun of the married guys (and gals) up late at night cruising fetlife it is mainly because those guys who style themselves Doms or Masters and make some of these comments we are discussing are not just fakes but inauthentic..it is a HUGE pet peeve of mine for someone to call themselves those things but then not have the guts to live authentically. By that I mean at the VERY least being honest with their spouse about their interests...I don't object to lying on moral grounds per se I just find it cowardly and in my mind that prevents one from being a dom of any sort. If you have these drives I don't think you need to proclaim it to every person you know but you should be honest with your partner...if you are into bdsm tell them..if you are into poly (or having multiple subs) DONT MARRY SOMEONE MONO. Be a man, be true to who you are and what you want, if you have caved to societal standards that aren't right for you I have zero respect for you as a man. Hope that clarifies a bit..I am not painting every commenter with the same brush.

+edited to add: in a nutshell-if you can't live your own life in a fashion that is deserving of respect how can you expect a sub to follow your lead

sleasentease's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

Schrodingers submissive wrote:
sleasentease wrote:

And what of the married women??

The boring ones are apparently sleeping while their husbands are pawing over fetish photos on the internet and clearing their browser histories. The interesting ones are doing something else.

Shoeporn wrote:

Lol yes them too...though I generally imagine them late at night at the kitchen table typing : "jealous!!! I would love to be treated like that" lol

Ha! Good one, Shoeporn!

Interesting...

Schrodingers submissive's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

sleasentease wrote:

And what of the married women??

The boring ones are apparently sleeping while their husbands are pawing over fetish photos on the internet and clearing their browser histories. The interesting ones are doing something else.

Shoeporn wrote:

Lol yes them too...though I generally imagine them late at night at the kitchen table typing : "jealous!!! I would love to be treated like that" lol

Ha! Good one, Shoeporn!

Shoeporn's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

Harpo wrote:
Shoeporn wrote:
I have Googled and she does seem interesting. The book you mentioned (took me back to my college psych days) was about 55 dollars..would you say it is worth it?

I think you should read her paper first ( Fantasy, Fusion And Sexual Homicide ). Then you can decide if it's worth to get the book.

Good read, a very serious and scholastic essay....not sure I would be up for several hundred pages that academic but I appreciate the tip...I may read more of her public stuff.

Harpo I had thought you merely a troll (albeit an intelligent one)...I was wrong, thanks!

Shoeporn's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

sleasentease wrote:
Schrodingers submissive wrote:
Shoeporn wrote:
When I see the encouraging comments like you mentioned ..the "good girls" etc they always kind of strike me as coming from guys who you just KNOW are cruising the website sitting their recliner after the wife goes to bed. Lol. But I may be wrong to be so dismissive of them.

Believe me, the old married voyuers sneaking around on their laptops in secret, expounding about their made up experience and knowledge of BDSM, hoping against hope that their wives (who would never indulge these fixations) don't catch them - those guys can and should be dismissed.

And what of the married women??

Lol yes them too...though I generally imagine them late at night at the kitchen table typing : "jealous!!! I would love to be treated like that" lol

sleasentease's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

Schrodingers submissive wrote:
Shoeporn wrote:
When I see the encouraging comments like you mentioned ..the "good girls" etc they always kind of strike me as coming from guys who you just KNOW are cruising the website sitting their recliner after the wife goes to bed. Lol. But I may be wrong to be so dismissive of them.

Believe me, the old married voyuers sneaking around on their laptops in secret, expounding about their made up experience and knowledge of BDSM, hoping against hope that their wives (who would never indulge these fixations) don't catch them - those guys can and should be dismissed.

And what of the married women??

Schrodingers submissive's picture

Re: Where do we draw the line

Shoeporn wrote:
When I see the encouraging comments like you mentioned ..the "good girls" etc they always kind of strike me as coming from guys who you just KNOW are cruising the website sitting their recliner after the wife goes to bed. Lol. But I may be wrong to be so dismissive of them.

Believe me, the old married voyuers sneaking around on their laptops in secret, expounding about their made up experience and knowledge of BDSM, hoping against hope that their wives (who would never indulge these fixations) don't catch them - those guys can and should be dismissed.

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